Narcissists and Body Shaming

Whether your narcissist is a parent, sibling, spouse or boyfriend, body shaming is one of the ways that they can control you and keep you subservient.   Unfortunately, most women view their bodies as flawed and the narc picks up on this and feeds on it. 

My mother used to tell me that my breasts were "retarded" and that she knew this because in school they showed pictures of "retarded" boobs and they look just like mine.  She also used to take me school shopping each year and insist I go to the Husky sizes first.  I had to prove to her every single year that I was NOT husky.  My weight was NORMAL!   I was so embarrassed to come out of the dressing room wearing pants that I had to hold up because they were six inches larger than my waist and at least four inches too short.  It was meant to humiliate me and put me in my place before we shopped for real clothes for school.

I later dated a guy who told me that if I had a crease where my behind ended and my thighs began that I was too fat.  A crease is normal there.  He would constantly tell me he felt I was gaining weight and getting too fat.  I was 5'4" and weighed 102lbs, yet I was not thin enough for him, he felt I bordered on obese.  He cheated on me and when I found out and as crying, he told me she was nothing like me, that she did not have an ounce of fat on her body anywhere.  He said she was a good five inches taller than me and weighed less and he could not pass that up.  She was very lucky and saw through him quickly. He pointed out a flaw in her and she asked him to leave and never come back.  I know this because the narc did what narcs do and came running back to me with the perfect act of repentance.  He did not have fresh supply lined up yet, so he needed me. 


What can we do? 
I think the new girlfriend had the right idea.  No one has the right to critique your body except you and any person that tries is not your friend.   If someone says to you, "Hon, have you considered a boob job?", your answer should be, "No, but I am considering removing negativity from my life and I think you need to leave now".   

I no longer talk to my mom, but if she were to mention a body flaw, I would state, "I am glad you were able to point that out, but it's not your place and I need you to keep negative thoughts to yourself".

If you are on the phone, it's easy.  State, "Hey, I am kinda busy, can I call you back later?".  Get off the phone immediately.  Do not reward negative behaviors by staying on the phone.  You do not need to give a reason. 

What Does No Contact Mean?

Whether your narc is your mom, brother, sister, spouse or boyfriend/girlfriend, you decided it is time to go no contact.  This is the hardest thing you will ever do.  It requires commitment and a plan. 

What exactly is no contact?

1) No contact means never speaking the person's name to anyone who knows them.
     This one can be pretty tough.  Your sister calls and wants to talk about the narc.  What will you say?  I planned my response out prior to going no contact.  I have more than one narc in my life because I attract them.  If I am on the phone with the person and a narc is brought up, I say, "Hey, something has come up and I will need to call you back later".  I then get off the phone as quickly as possible.  They quickly learn that to talk to me over the phone they need to not bring up the narc. 

In person, I try not responding at all to the comment and changing the subject myself.  If the person says, "narc asked about you", I say, "Did you tell me your daughter just got a new job, said her first word, rode a bike for the first time?".  If that does not work, it's time to bring out the more direct comments.  If someone brings up my narc mother in person, I reply, "I don't talk about the woman who birthed me, we need to change the subject".   If someone brings up the narc who called herself my best friend, I respond, "I haven't spoken to or about that person in a really long time, and I am not about to start now."  I then offer a new subject.

Yes this is hard.  I meet with some of my family members a few times a year (we live far apart) and they always try to bring up the narc.  If they continue bringing up the narc in conversation when we meet, I stop meeting with them.  They bring no joy into my life if they talk about the narc.

If you feel like you need to talk about the narc to someone there are groups online for that where no one knows the narc.  You can hash out your feelings without talking badly about the narc to people you both know.  I would suggest finding a group and talking about your situation.


2)  No contact means not reading correspondence 
The narc will try to get you to break this one because once you read an email, you are forced to make a decision.  The narc sends a letter or an email in an attempt to get a response from you.  It is bait.  If you open it, you took the bait and must now make a decision.  The narc knows you, the contents will be good.  They will try to force you to act.  Will you take the bait?

3) No contact means not opening gifts
Send them back unopened. No excuses here, you cant accept gifts from someone you don't talk to.

4) No contact means not stalking them on facebook or other venues
They can and probably will stalk you, but each and every time you open their facebook looking for info, they win.  They WANT you to long for them.  They WANT you to look at what they are doing without you.  Moving on is the best thing you can do and that does not involve curiosity about the narcs life without you.

How to Make Your Narc Ex Miss You

Just like when you were kids on the see saw, you thought things were going great, and the other person hopped off with no warning crashing you down.  You thought the relationship was great, or you thought that it had its problems but that the two of you could work on them.

It seemed out of the blue.  Maybe he or she found new supply and left you for them, or maybe you walked in and found your significant other cheating on you.  Either way, the two of you broke up and you want him to miss you like you miss him! I refer to a male, but a woman can do the same thing, its just easier to choose a sex and go with it.

First, lets get to the real issue.  You miss the narc.  You miss how the narc made you feel when you were with him.  You miss the person the narc sold you, which was a lie.  You want the narc to feel the same.  You want him to miss you.  So what do you do?

First off, write him or her a quick email or text and tell them that you do not want a bad or nasty breakup, that you are sorry that the relationship did not work out.  This helps you end the relationship in your mind and gives you high ground.  He cannot go running to new supply with, "look what that witch said..".

Next, you will not have sex with the narc ever again, no matter what.  The two of you have broken up.  If the narc wants you to have sex, it is not because he loves you, it is because he wants sex.  He also has not had time to look for new supply, so he is going back to old supply.  Sex to the narc is not a way of showing love, it is sex.  When the narc asks you for sex, ask him if he went back to old supply when the two of you were together, then end the conversation.

You need limited to no contact.  If your narc is happy with no contact, that tells you something.  He has moved on before he even got out of the relationship.  At this point, phoning, emailing, texting him will make you look pitiful.  Since that is not who you are, you will not do it.  If you feel weak and want to call him, I do have a suggestion that I will get to later.  You are going to limit contact only to the bare essentials.  If you have kids, draft an email letting him know when he may contact you by phone (emergency involving kids), when he may contact you by email (non-urgent) and when he should send you a text (if he will be late).  He is not to phone you to ask how your mom is doing, that is not his concern.  If he phones, you answer, "what is the emergency?"  If he stalls, hang up.  Do NOT allow him to break the boundary you have set.    This also means deleting him off facebook and any other application where he can see you.  You will want him on ignore.  There is no reason for him to see you on facebook, ever.  Ignore him and his friends and family (unless it's his mom who has a relationship with your kids).  The few people who are left need to be put on the acquaintance list.  Make your posts "friends except acquaintance" and they see nothing.    You will NOT initiate any contact with him.  Yes, this is hard...but you have to.  The exception is if you have kids and need to email him and then it is only to be an email about the kids.

Your best shot at making the narc miss you is by living a life that does not include him.  He wants supply.  He wants someone he can phone 3 years from now and say, "hey, I miss you" and get sex.  You will not be this person.  You want someone in your life who loves you for who you are and wants to be in your life for the day to day contact, not someone who phones you for sex.   You downgraded his priority and made your self respect your highest priority.  Narcs do not want you to do that!    If you are in contact and an argument starts, it is highly important that you end the conversation immediately.  Do NOT argue with the narc.  How to do this is simply... you say, "Hey, I'm kinda busy right now, can I call you back later?" And hang up.



What will you do during this time?  You will work on yourself and your self confidence.  Try something new, join a meetup group, do something you have always wanted to do.  Besides that, you need to mourn the person that the narc sold you.  How do you do that?  Realize that the narc sold you a lie.  A person that does not exist.  You will need to picture in your mind splitting the narc into 2 people.  The first person is the narc in his true form.  Think about all the terrible things he has done to you. The other is the lie the narc sold you.  To mourn this narc, you can get an object that reminds you of him.  It can be something as simple as his name on a slip of paper.  Next you will write a letter to the narc.  Take a few days if necessary.  Be sure to include everything you can think of.  Write it out.  Go for a walk someplace nearby and bury the person that never existed.  Dig a small hole.  Put the keepsake into the hole and read the note outloud.  Put the note into the hole and bury the entire thing.  Mark the location.  If you want to phone the narc, you will need to walk to this location and talk to the "grave" instead of phoning them.

The narc will notice.  HE WILL notice that you aren't doing what he expected.  He expected to be begged back.  He expected you to want him so badly that you would have sex with him knowing you are the other woman.  He expected that you had so little self esteem that this would be EASY.  He will not understand what happened.  He will not understand why you are not calling him, texting him, begging him.  He will wonder why you won't have sex with him.  His plan always works, yet it did not with you..... That is the ONLY way to get a narc to think about you after discard.



You deserve someone who feels that you are enough.



For more support, read How to Get Over the Narc

How To Spot A Narcissist While Dating

Dating can be fun, but it is also hard, especially when you fear you will end up with a narcissist.  There are some pretty easy ways to sort out a narcissist.    A narcissist may vary his routine up a little, but in general, you will find that he or she does the following things.


#1 The goal is to get you to love him or her (and have sex)

How does this show up?  The narc wants to sell you a person that does not exist.  This lie they make up is the perfect person for you.  When you are on your first date, ask questions.  Narcs tend to have a script and want to follow it because they know it works.  If you start asking questions, it throws them off of their game.

You are on the first date with a narc.  He takes you to a nice restaurant and starts to sell himself.  He tells you his accomplishments, true or false and attempts to make himself out to be a good mate.  He tells you he is a long distance runner and runs each day for hours.  He tells you he was married once, but is a widow.  He hopes that you will assume his wife died while they were together and says it hurts him to talk about it.  You ask if he has kids and he says he has two that are 12 and 15.  He moves on quickly to tell you that his job involves a lot of travel.  You stop him and ask to go back to his kids and you ask if they live with him.  He says no, he lives alone, then he jumps back to his job.  Did you notice?  He is widowed but his kids do not live with him. Why not?  Do not allow him to speed over answers.  Do not allow him to stick to a script.  Ask questions and expect answers.  Chances are, he or she will not want to answer questions. Their goal for this date is to sell you the lie.  If they are to sell you a lie, they want to ask all the questions, they need to mould the lie into the perfect lie for YOU and they can't do that if you keep asking the wrong questions.

A first date is the time for you to decide if your personalities fit.  It is not a time for sex, it is not a time for seeing his apartment, it is not a time for being told he has loved you for months and is just now telling you.

A person that tells you he or she loves you on the first date is probably a narcissist.  Why?

#2 Narcissist are in a hurry. 

 The narcissist goal is to get you to love him or her and have sex.  The narcissist is not willing to wait for either.  They will do something called love bombing.  Love bombing is when they decide they cannot live without you and that they want to talk to you or be near you often.  They will push for sex also.  A narcissist will send you dozens of texts during the day and talk about wanting to be near you.

The narc will need you to fall in love quickly!  He or she cannot move on with the plan if you do not fall in love!

So what do you do if you suspect love bombing?  Make the narc wait.  Tell him or her that you just want to take things slowly and that you have no intention of telling someone you love them for at least four months and that you might not even have sex for the next year.  If your date if just anxious and in love, he or she will respect that.  They love you and they respect you and they will still want to see you while waiting for you.  The narc wants to try to rush and have sex now if possible.  If not now, they want to know it will happen soon.  A friend once told me that after the first date, a narc sent her a pic of his private parts on the phone and suggested she see them in person for the second date and asked for pics of her.  She texted him back that she does not have sex on a second date and she was not the type of person to send dirty pics.  His response, "Then maybe you are not the right person for me :)"

Notice the smile at the end?  He gave himself away, then smiled.  He told her the truth, that he was not interested in her unless she was putting out, but he did it in a playful way so that he could accuse her of misreading it later.

#3 The Narcissist will slip up

Dating is the time when a man sells himself to a woman as a partner.  If you view dating as this, then it becomes easier to spot the narcs.  I saw one video where a guy said a date is a preview to the movie and sometimes the trailer looks really good, but the movie stinks.  Dating is your time to decide if the movie stinks.  I would suggest not having sex and not moving in until you have determined that the person you are dating truly loves you and wants to be with you.

I was with a friend once when her narc boyfriend phoned.  She did not yet know he was a narc, but he gave himself away during that call and she did not notice!  We went out to lunch. First off, he called and texted at least six times before she said she was going to have to take his call (impatience).  We walked to a quiet area where she could take his call and he claimed he "forgot" she was busy for lunch that day.  He then said he wanted to check to see if he got an email response from another lady he had been emailing...while on the phone to my friend.  He quickly followed it up with how much he loved her and bomb bomb bomb.  She ended the call and I asked her why she was dating someone who was "emailing another woman".  She didn't even recall hearing it!  She heard he loves her.  He told her he was seeing someone else, and she did not even hear it.  She said, "I'm sure it's innocent, he loves me".   She found out later, he was cheating and not with just that email woman.  Do not ignore the clues!

#4 The narcissist will love bomb you, but gets angry if you try to love bomb them.

You are in a meeting at work, and get a dozen or more emails and texts from the guy you are dating.  He sends flowers to your office.  He sends flowers to your home.  He makes sure everyone knows you are dating someone.  He goes on a business trip (where he is cheating on you, but you do not know), and you miss him, so you try to phone.  It's 7pm and he should be at his hotel room right now, but your call goes to voicemail.  You tell him you miss him and you will phone him later.  At 8pm, it's odd that he has not phoned you back (because he is with a side chick), and you phone again.  No answer.  At 10pm, before you go to bed, you text him that you love him and are going to bed and you will talk to him tomorrow.  When he phones you the next day, he blows.  How dare you phone him over and over when he is OBVIOUSLY busy!  He will lie that his son phoned and said he was depressed and he could not leave to talk to whiny you!  You are shocked.  When he wants to talk to you, he phones over and over and over with no regard to what you are doing, but now he is angry that you did the same back to him.  How dare you!

If this happens to you, it is best to break up with the person on that phone call.  Love bombing just ended and you will never see it again.

If you fear you are dating a narc, you will need to make goals in dating.

#1 Know the person and their family prior to having sex.

Be comfortable with the person and their family.  If they refuse to allow you to meet family, something is up.

#2 Be comfortable with your date's past

Does your date claim his ex wife is psycho?  Is she? Are you comfortable with knowing that she will be a part of your life if you date him?  What if he made her crazy?

#3 Know your date as a person

You do not have to love every past time your date does, but you do need to appreciate it.  Are they gone long weekends claiming to be doing the hobby but wont let you go?  Are they happy that you want to go and spend time with them even if you dont go on 100 mile bike rides?

#4 Know your dates friends

Does your date have friends that he or she hangs around without you?  That is fine for the first few months, but a serious date will want you to meet their friends.


Narcs want to rush to sex.  They want to rush you falling in love with him or her so they can move onto the next new person.  If you force them to slow down, narcs will not put up with it.  They will move on and a break up after a few dates is much easier than a break up after you have fallen in love with the narc and have his kid.  Do not allow them to rush!

You deserve someone who feels that you are enough.



For more support, read How to Get Over the Narc

Excuses For Bad Parenting- When Your Narcissist Mom Justifies Her Bad Behavior

How does your mom react to the movie Mommy Dearest?

One of the things narcissist do is to compare themselves to others in an attempt to justify their bad behaviors.  Somehow in their mind, if there is someone out there worse than they are, then they are FINE.  As long as someone is more abused than you, then your mom is not abusive.  I still do not follow the logic behind it, but it was how my narc mom felt.




I recall it from the time I was very small.  Hearing my mom tell stories of how bad other parents were.  My mom loved to lock me out of the house as punishment and one of my aunts found out about it.  My aunt confronted my mom and my mom talked about how there was a woman down the street that did not allow her kids in the house at all during the day, that she set out peanut butter and bread for them at lunchtime.  She would then get this look on her face that told me she was gloating and felt she was a much better mom than that.

I also recall once my sister had a teacher confront her about my mom. My sister told my mom about the accusations and my mom burst into tears.  She could not believe that anyone would question her parenting ability.  She harped about how we were not abused and she couldn't imagine why anyone would think we were.  The only problem was that we were abused.  I had a purse thrown at me once that cut my head, I knew how to hide in the hamper or deep in my closet so she could not find me.

Mommy Dearest came out when I was a young teen and in the prime of her abuse.  She had a good time talking about the movie to any of her friends that would listen.  It was proof that my mom was a good mom!  She never woke us up to clean the bathroom, she never made messes for us to clean up, she was a GOOD mom!  My mom said she would never make us give away our birthday gifts, why that was terrible.  The fact was, we did not have to give away birthday gifts because we never had parties.  We were not allowed.  Why would anyone be allowed to do anything that did not involve my mom as the center of attention?  Forget it!

She also talked about how horrible it was to send your kids away to boarding school!  I could tell by her voice that she was actually jealous of that one.  If my mom could have afforded for us to go to boarding school, we would have been away.

The night before my wedding, my mom pitched the biggest fit I had ever seen.  She did not want me to have a wedding and I was NOT going to have one!  She thought that by pressuring me and ranting that I would cave in and decide not to have one.  I was not going to cancel the wedding and the more I refused, the worse she got.  She came at me in an attempt to "mark my face" so I would cancel "this horrible thing I was making her go to" and that was the one and only time my dad stepped in.  I think he stepped in because he realized that if she hit me and cut my face or bruised me, I was NOT cancelling the wedding, I would go and tell everyone she did it.


Did you see it in your mom?  If you want to read more about narc moms, please check out the books below.  These are my favorite and I have found that it helps to read them...keep them and when you are feeling down, re-read one.

Mother's Day When Your Mom Is A Narcissist

My mom is a covert narc.  She wanted me to fail at life.  When that didn't work, she had to make new plans.  My dad got cancer and one day my mom decided to stop taking my calls.  For a while I begged her machine.  I had no idea what a narc was at the time, but I knew that I had a mom who had to have everything her way or someone was going to pay.

So I did something and I needed to pay.  What did I do?  I'm not sure and I will never know.   I was not the first person she had cut out of her life.  She feels that cutting her out of your life is punishment.  Everyone wants to be her friend and she hates them all.   I saw her cut her sister out of her life.  My grandma was declining and the siblings decided they would take turns having my grandma at their house.  My mom had her for a week and tried to phone my aunt to take her off her hands.  My aunt was on vacation and it made my mom so angry that she never spoke to her again.  She pretended she spoke to her sometimes when people would ask, but I knew she was not taking her calls.  I saw her screening them with my own eyes. 

She also cut a friend out of her life.  This friend would have done anything for us.  My mom refused to drive a car and on the times one of us got sick at school, our neighbor would go get us from school.  She never once complained about it.  She also took us to activities sometimes and I was always grateful for everything she did for us.  My mom on the other hand seethed with resentment.  I am not exactly sure at what point she decided that she would never speak to our neighbor again, but I recall her being insanely jealous over a new car and some carpet.  If you buy something my mom can't afford, you are out of her life.  

These are just two examples of the times I saw my mom cut people out of her life for no decent reason besides that she was done using them, but it happened regularly.  I just never thought it would happen to me, her daughter.  It did.  

At first, I begged.  Then I left her a message that said, "For me to continue to call your answering machine and leave messages seems pitiful, so when you are ready to talk to me again, call me".  

She never phoned me. 

There is much more to the story, but in the end, I decided that stealing the last four years of my dad's life from me and my kids was too great of a price to pay, and when she decided we needed to talk, I told her that she chose to shut us out of her life, and I was choosing not to allow her back into it. 

But Mother's Day hurts. 

I decided that we can celebrate Mother's Day, just like other people do.  

First off, if you are no contact with your mom and you have mourned your mom (I talk about that HERE), go to the grave you made for the mom you never had.  Buy a card and leave it at the grave.  You deserved a mother who loves you and you did not get that.  It's time to mourn the mom you always wanted.  

If you have kids, this day is about you, not your mom.  Celebrate with your kids! Make a new ritual that you do every year with your kids.  I always cook waffles with strawberries on Mother's Day, then if it's raining, we go to a certain museum and if it's not, we go to the botanical garden and walk around.  I tell my kids what I want for them in their lives while we are there.   Find something you can do every year and start your own tradition.  

If you do not have kids and are no contact with your mom, you can still have a tradition that you do each and every year. Make it about you!  What is your favorite thing to do?  Spend alone time reading a book?  Visit a garden and explore?  Take a hike on a trail?  Work on your favorite hobby?  This is a day for you to look forward, not back.  Set some goals or make a vision board.  

If you live with your mom, sorry.  This is one of my pet peeves.  If you live with your mom, you just have to deal.  You are under her roof, she is supporting you, you have to do things her way.  Make a plan to move out.  I find it hard to believe that people talk badly about someone who pays their bills and puts a roof over their head.  Move out. 

If you are stuck with low contact send a card.   This is also a time for you to point out that your spouse has a mom too, and tell her that you can only spend every other Mother's Day with her.  Arrive respectably late and have a specific time that you need to leave.  While you are with your mom, watch out for bait.  When she exclaims that your hair looks like something a 2 year old hacked at, agree with her.  When she says she is sorry that you can't seem to control your weight, agree with her.  If you choose low contract, you have to put up with a certain amount of trivial abuses.  If she asks how is your job, "It's fine".  Try to be as vague as possible and keep the topics light.  If she decides it's time to discuss your religion, change the subject.  Plan ahead for this.  She is your mom, you know what she loves to talk about.  If your mom loves to garden, bring up the church garden and how hers is 100 times better, then you are off on a new subject.  Avoid taking bait.  There is no requirement to answer any question.  Silence can be an answer, then change the subject to her favorite topic, herself.   If you don't feel like this is possible, it's time for No contact.  

Anyone can mourn the mom they always wanted, the article listed above tells how that is done.  It was one thing that helped me get through my first Mother's Day with No Contact.  I also had some good books to read to help me through the day. 

If you need advice on how to handle everyone else, try this article http://emmafrancisathome.blogspot.com/2017/05/she-did-best-she-could-says-flying.html

What does your mom do to make Mother's Day impossible for you?

If you have a few days, I'd suggest ordering a book to read.  There are plenty out there.  Here are my favorites:

She Did The Best She Could - Says The Flying Monkey Sent From Your Narc Mom

You finally have answers.  You found things on narcissism and you realize your mom is a narc.  Not only is your mom a narc, but you have a golden child sibling and your mom surrounds herself with flying monkeys that get to you when she can't.


You have mourned the mom you always wanted and have decided to either limit contact with your toxic mom or have gone no contact.  People figure out that you are not in contact with your mom and the comments start.


Your mom did the best she could.
She was abused when she was little.
Your mom had nothing and she gave you so much more.
Your mom loves you and misses you.


Mom's should support their kids, not try to control them.  Your mom does not understand this and she has set out her flying monkies to bring you back in line.  But wait....this is bait.  Do you fall for it?  Do you gossip about your mom?  How do you answer those types of questions?

The Phone
If the person is on the phone and brings up your mom the response is an easy one.  You say, "Hey, I'm kind of busy right now, can I call you back?".   You do not need to offer any reason for leaving beyond that. After they say, "ok", hang up.  You put the ball into your court too by asking if you can call them back.  If they call back, you can push it a little and say again, "Oh, I'm sorry, but I am still in the middle of something, I said I would call you back, would that be ok?".

As pitiful as it sounds, I learned this one first hand.  I had just moved 500 miles from home.  I had no friends and my spouse was working long hours.  I was walking outside one day and met the nicest girl.  I found out that we had a lot in common and I immediately wanted to be her friend.  She had just moved from California and her husband wasn't moving for a few more months.  She was alone too, with no one.  I was so excited that I had someone to talk to!  Apparently, she did not share in the enthusiasm.   I realized this, and decided that phoning her once a week to talk would be good. I looked forward to having someone to talk to all week. I was desperate to hear a voice, to interact with anyone.  I decided that I would phone her Wednesday mornings and hoped we could build a friendship.  I waited anxiously for Wednesday, wishing I had friends.   I phoned her and when she answered, she said, "Hey, I'm kinda busy, do you mind if I phone you back?".  My heart sank.  I knew she had no intention of phoning me back again, ever.  I knew that if I phoned her back, I would look like some weirdo stalker.  Sadly, that was our last conversation.  That conversation served to help me deal with narcs in my life, and I am glad to have had it.  Looking back, I do not think we were really a good fit as friends.  I think I was so lonely that anyone would have looked like a friend and I think that my desperation to have a social link offended her.  I think that once I made friends, she would have melted away and she realized that and had no interest in helping out someone who was desperately lonely.

I have also been on the other end and have had to say this to a person.  Believe it or not, she phoned me back thirty minutes later.  I was shocked, but then I realized, she had an agenda.  She was not phoning me to talk, she was phoning me because she was a flying monkey and she needed to report back to the boss.  I did not take her call at thirty minutes and over the next thirty minutes, she phoned me at least nine times.  I had a visitor at my house and my phone was ringing constantly and it was embarrassing.  I finally had to pick the phone up and tell her that I would need to call her back later.   She really tried to get me into conversation at that point, but I stood firm and said that I could not talk.

She said it would be ok if I phoned her back.  Within thirty minutes, she phoned me again.  This time, I blocked her call.  Why?

Because I set a boundary and she was ignoring that boundary.  I said I would phone her back.  Any normal, sane person would wait for my call back.  Her attempts to get me onto the phone were only so that she could run back to the narc with information.  I set a boundary, she will follow the boundary I set.  I said I would phone her back, and I did.   I phoned her back the next day.  By then, the wind was out of her sails and when I asked her what was so important that she could not allow me to speak to her when I had time to be fully present, she could not even give me a clear answer.  I am sure she was angry at having been put on ignore temporarily, but I set the boundary and she did not follow it.

The Internet
You log into facebook to find someone has pasted you the long rant your mom has posted about missing you, wishing you well, not understanding why you have cut out your only family, etc etc.  The important thing is to see this post for what it is, and that is BAIT.  Your mom needs to be the victim and we all know that narcs are really good at playing the victim.  You do not have to follow my advice here, but I would say ignore it and the person that sent it to you.  Realize that the person who forwarded you this post may be a flying monkey.  Does this person have good intentions towards you? Remember, you do not need to tell everyone details.  You can simply respond, "Wow, that looks desperate, what kind of a person posts that?"  Or you can choose to ignore it all together. No one says you have to respond to anything.  What you do not want to do is respond to the bait.  Let the narc play the victim.  It's ok.  It really is.  It's ok if some people think you are an ungrateful child.  The world will not end.  If you take their bate and get into it with this person, everything you said will be shared with friends, relatives and strangers and you will look worse than you would have if you had ignored it.

In Person
This is the most difficult.  You host your child's birthday party and did not invite the narc because you are no contact.  Someone at the party walks up to you and starts talking about how your mom loves you and wants to be in your life.  If this is not a family member, the response is pretty simple.  You say, "I'm sorry, but I don't discuss family issues with people outside the family, you do understand don't you?".  I like asking them to respond.  By asking them to respond, they are risking looking crazy if they keep bringing it up.  Just like the person on the phone, you have ended this conversation and any attempts to restart it make this person look insane.
Relatives are a different story.  You can respond that it's between you and your mom and ask them if they understand, but because they are family, you will not get the same reaction as you would with a non-family member.  I find that the best response is this:

Hey, we are having a really good time today, and I don't want to spoil it with a discussion like that.  If you want to talk to me about my mom, maybe we can discuss it over coffee at a later time, would that be ok?   When they respond, say, "I am so glad you understand, I wouldnt want you to make my guests uncomfortable".

You have turned it around on them.  First, you said you would discuss it at a later non-specific date and not at any gathering.  You said you would discuss it ALONE, one on one with them, not at their kid's birthday.  You made them agree to it by asking if it was ok, then you stated that if they bring it up again, it would make your guests uncomfortable.  We wouldn't want that now would we?


If you are looking for more help, try the books below.

Key Point # 6 - What is a Golden Child? - The Narcissist Mom's Curse

Narcissist mom's are not capable of loving all of their children equally, or making them all feel loved.  A mom's job is to find your child's talents and help develop them, but a narc mom won't do this. She picks a single child to become the Golden Child and the rest are scapegoats.  If you are the scapegoat, you may look at the golden child with jealousy because they had things their way all the time, but this is not a blessing.

A golden child does not learn that their actions have consequences, so therefore, they do not.  The golden child sees the world as a place where they can easily get their way and they do not understand why they can't skip college and be the CEO of a great company.  Their mom has told them that they are great, why does the world not see this?

The scapegoat grows up seeing the golden child treated differently.

Want to go shopping?  The golden child will get the items they want.  I was slapped once for pointing out that my sister got all my hand me downs plus just as many new clothes as I got.  I was called ungrateful.  Maybe I was, but how is it fair that I have four outfits and she has eight?

Grocery shopping.  The kids in my house were expected to put away all groceries from a young age.  My narc mom only shopped once a month, so it was a huge chore.  The second we got home, golden child would grab a toy or book, lock herself into the only bathroom claiming she had to "make a big one".  She refused to come out until scapegoat had put away all the groceries.  When scapegoat pointed this out, narc mom would laugh and do nothing about it.

How about school.  The scapegoat needs to get good grades.  The golden child can cry that she tries her very best and doesn't get good grades and the narc mom says, "awww, she tried".  Meanwhile, the scapegoat gets yelled at for getting a B on her report card.

What about playing with friends?  The scapegoat will have more friends than the golden child.  No one wants to play with a kid that demands their way or gets you into trouble.  The Narc mom sees this and demands that scapegoats friends include golden child.  Scapegoats friends go home when they are told they have to include golden child.  Narc mom makes a special treat for golden child because she feels bad that golden child has no friends.  Golden child is told to eat it in front of scapegoat.  As punishment, scapegoat is told to go play with her friends, but narc knows they all went home.  We all know that the scapegoat must pay.

Golden child is playing with scapegoat and her friends and is demanding her own way.  One of the friends refuses to give golden child her way.  Golden child tries to push the kid, but the kid steps aside and golden child falls to the ground and bloodies her nose.  Scapegoat is punished and made to feel like the accident was her fault.  If her friends would only play nicely with golden child, it would never have happened.


The kids in the family are always told that if they sneak around, they will be kicked out of the house.  The scapegoat tries very hard to meet the parents approval, never being allowed to go go to birthday parties, Halloween parties or anything that could be called a party.   Meanwhile the golden child gets busted climbing out the window to go to a drinking party at age 16 and the parents just shrug their shoulders and wish out loud that she would behave.

The golden child is still living at home at the age of 18.  She somehow graduated from school and does not have a job.  The scapegoat has a job and goes to college, and the parents accuse her of never wanting to grow up.  Scapegoat gets lectured every day and told the story of a person who moved out the day after graduation, got her own apartment and a job that very day.  Scapegoat obviously does not want to grow up and move out.

The golden child gets pregnant.  The parents take the golden child out and buy her a maternity wardrobe.  When the hard working scapegoat points out that she was told that nothing would be given to her after she graduates from high school, she is called ungrateful.

The golden child doesn't want to upset the father so she refuses to get child support.  The parents nod and agree to pay for raising the child.  Why not.

Golden child lives with her parents until her daughter is about 7 years old, then she gets pregnant again by a mall rat with no job and marries him.  Their goal is to move in together, but since neither will get a job, it takes a while.  This was the first and only time Narc mom said no to golden child.  Golden child wanted baby daddy to move into the house with them and could not understand why narc mom and pushover dad did not want to take care of her entire family.  They took care of her and her child, why not her husband too?



ps:  A few months ago, I fact checked the story I was always told about the person who moved out the day after graduation, got an apartment that day and a job.  I phoned the person and told her the story.  She laughed.  She said it wasn't the day after graduation, but it probably was a month after.   She said her mom drove her into the city every day so that she could fill out applications.  She said her mom would drive the car around while she filled out applications and interviewed then pick her up outside.  She said they did this for about a month before she got a job offer.   She told me that when she got the job offer, her mom gave her 4 months rent and drove with her to the city to look for an apartment.  She said they made the deposit of first and last months rent on a studio apartment and that she used the other money to live off of until she got paid and could pay her own rent.   Big difference.



The relationship between the golden child and the scapegoat can be a difficult one.  First off, it appears that they were raised by two different sets of parents.  It might be possible to have a sibling relationship, and it might not.  The narc mom drives such a huge wedge between the two that it is possible that it might always be in the way.  Realize that how your sibling was treated was not their decision.  It helps to start very small.

This is where I went wrong.  I had not spoken to my sister in years because I felt we had nothing in common.  When I realized that my mom was a narc and had driven a huge wedge between me and my sibling, I sent my sister an email.  I apologized for allowing a person to dictate the relationship she had with me.  For some reason, I expected her to jump at the chance of a relationship with me, and I was shocked that she really didn't want one.   She would bring up our mother, then accuse me of "talking about her".  We once had a facebook conversation where I pasted back to her where she started the conversation and she became angry with me and said that she only wanted to hear "rainbows and unicorns" from me and nothing else.  So my sister said she only wants a shallow relationship with me and will not settle for anything else.  If I want a relationship with her at all, it will be her shallow relationship.  I had to go with it.  I wish I had a sister relationship where we talked about things and told each other our thoughts and dreams, but I never will.  I have to be happy with what she has chosen.  I will never have a sister that I can lean on in hard times and I blame myself as much as my narc mom for this.


Are you able to have a relationship with the golden child? If you want to know more about narcissism, here are some great books on amazon

If Your Narcissist Won't Let Go

Some narcissist discard you, then play games trying to get you back, but there is a form of narc that refuses to let you go.


 Have you ever read a story in the newspaper of a narc spouse or boyfriend killing his sig other stating, "If I can't have her, no one can". This is a different type of narc and you may have problems. The traditional view of "just don't talk to him" isn't going to work for you.You will need a different approach that might involve the police.


 First off, if you are not safe, phone the police right now. Get measures in place to protect you. Realize that his man can kill you and that your protection comes first. Do not delay in phoning.



If you do not have kids with the narc:

Your job will be easier.  Talk to your local police about what to do if he shows up at your job.   Change your phone number today.  Give your new number only to people you know will not give it to him.  There is no reason to take calls from him.   If you fear for your life, it is time to think about changing jobs and moving.   At the very least, try to get away if he seems agitated.   Take a weekend trip or stay with a friend for a few days.   You need to be firm.  If he comes near you, phone the police immediately.  The firmer you are at the start, the more likely it is that he will move on at some point.  Try not to let him see you and do not become involved in his games.  Phone the police and if needed, move.



If you have kids with the narc:

Your situation is more difficult because you are required to have contact with the narc.  Consider arranging for someone else to drop off and pick up your kids.   It can be done.  I know a person whose cousin is in charge of meeting at a park to pick up and drop off her kids for dad's time.

Next, get a burner phone for him to call.  Change your number.  He is to only call the burner phone to talk to the kids, or talk to you about the kids.  Get an email address for him to email things that are not a priority.  You can choose your own email or you can make one that goes to your smart phone.  The key is to read his emails to see if they are important.  If he calls nightly to say goodnight to the kids, great, he can call the burner phone.  He does not get your personal number.  He does not need it.  When he is with the kids, keep the burner on you so that if there is an emergency, he can call you.

You can look at phone plans here:


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Send him an email telling him the rules for speaking with you.  If it is not a priority, he is to email.  Tell him what priority means to you.  In general if it is something that needs immediate attention, he can phone, but be careful of him putting things off until they require attention just so he can phone.  It is your job to set boundaries with him and you need to make them firm.  If you feel unsafe, phone the police immediately.

Make sure he has the boundaries in writing in an email.  If you are not allowing him to come to your home, he needs to know what will happen if he does.  It is best if you shut down your social media accounts for a while.  If he is a true stalker, he will find a way to know what you are doing.  If you don't want to shut yours down and do not fear for your life, you can also gray rock.


What does gray rock mean?  It means you become boring to anyone that would let him know what is going on.  Go into your facebook and set up an acquaintance list.  Anyone who talks to him is an acquaintance.  Now change your posts to "Friends except Acquaintance".    This means they cannot see your posts.  You become boring.  It appears to them that you do not post.   Still, if you fear for your life, shut the thing down.  Is it better to be alive or to post today's weather for everyone to see?


Remember, it is going to be your job to set the boundaries and the police's job to make sure they are followed.  If he shows up at your work, phones you 100 times a day or steps over the boundaries, phone the police.  Your job is to keep him at arms length and stay alive.


You deserve someone who feels that you are enough.



For more support, read How to Get Over the Narc

Key Point #4 It's Always Your Fault When Dealing With The Narc

Yes, it is always your fault.  It does not matter if the narc is a co-worker, a mother, father, partner, husband, wife, sister or friend.  It is always your fault.



You just caught your boyfriend or husband narc cheating.  It's your fault because you over-react to everything, so you were not told.  People have to walk on egg shells around you, they are scared of you so they don't tell you anything.  It's your own fault.  You pushed the narc into cheating by being suspicious even if you weren't.


Your father is dying of cancer and your narc mom decides to plan a trip.  She is currently punishing you for something so she isn't talking to you.  Even though they live 600 miles from you and have to drive 2 miles away from your home to get to the beach, you aren't told there is a family vacation. Why?  Because you would cause drama.  Someone might have to do something you want to do while they are at the beach and it's the last trip ever for your dad, and no one wants to remember you in it because you are so demanding.   You find out there was a trip when people start posting photos of everyone at the beach.  If you ask anyone why you were not invited, you will be the drama maker.  The narc mom who planned on omitting you from the trip is a victim of your drama.  So you cry alone instead because without doing a thing, it was your fault.


You invite your narc mom to your son's Eagle Scout Ceremony.  She said it sounds boring and she does not want to go.  You tell her that they plan on honoring the grandparents and you are expected to let them know why grandparents won't be there.  You can't tell them the truth, so you are forced to lie.  She finds out and is angry about the lie you chose to tell.  It's all your fault, you caused drama.  Her real reason was not the drama here, YOUR lie was the drama.


The narc will always turn things around on you.  You will be expected to put up with their cheating, cover for their lies and do it while worshiping the ground they walk on.

If you choose to keep the narc in your life, this will be your life. Here are some books I found helpful:

Key Point #1 Narcissists And Commitments

How do narcissists feel about commitments?  They hate commitments without rewards.  This can show up in many ways.

Dating a narc:
One of the easiest ways to figure out a narc early on is to refuse to have sex with the narc.  Make your date show commitment without reward.  A normal person will want to get to know you, will enjoy spending time with you and will listen to the boundary you have set.  For them, being with you is enjoyable, you are seeking someone who wants to get to know you over time.  A narc tries to rush this part of the relationship.  He or she could even have a script that you are told.  During love bombing, you will be overwhelmed with their need to be around you and to rush into a relationship.  If someone you are dating is moving too fast it is ok for you to say, "Hey, I want to take things slowly and I really appreciate the forty seven texts you sent me today telling me you love me and want to be with me, but I feel things are moving to fast and I am not ready to say I love you or to have sex yet.".   A cheating narc will probably dump you at that point because they want commitment with reward.  To the narc, those forty seven texts were the price they paid to have sex with you tonight and they expect to be paid.  A cheating narc is looking for new supply and if you refuse to give him or her what they want, they will move on pretty quickly.

The parent narc:
The narc parent also hates commitments without rewards and having kids is a lot of day to day work that is expected and there are no rewards.  This person may be a great parent if they get the kids every other weekend because they can put on a good show and then send the kids home.  They can commit to visitations because they get rewards from them, but they do not want the commitment of having kids around them all the time.  I know a narc that found himself in this situation when the mother of his kids died unexpectedly.   He quickly handed the kids over to their grandparents saying that he had a traveling job and could not possibly keep his own kids full time.  He does take them on wonderful vacations twice a year, but that isn't really parenting.

The grandparent narc:
You can't expect them to babysit or depend on them.  This was my mother.  I once phoned her because I was in preterm labor and asked if she could come help out with the kids while I was on bedrest and she refused because she didn't want to.  She also didn't want to come to any of her own grandkid's birthday parties, graduations, concerts, awards ceremonies or anything of the sort.  She felt they were boring and in her mind, she should not have to do anything that bores her...ever.   When she reads this, she will become angry at me for writing it because it's true.  She will not regret being an uninvolved grandparent, she will not wish she could go back and change things, she will be angry at me because I pointed out that she is less than perfect.



For more support read How to get over the Narc

Why Narcissists Ruin Holidays

Have you experienced it?  You are all set to celebrate your birthday, Christmas, Easter with the kids, but you know that the narc will find a way to ruin the day.  You try to have fun and enjoy it but you are waiting for the inevitable.   Just as you start to have fun, it comes.  The narc ruins it.  Whether they get drunk, don't show up, start a fight, or just "forget" to come, the narc can be counted on to ruin holidays.

The reason your narc misbehaves on holidays is different depending on what type of narc you are dealing with, but the reason they misbehave is the same.  At a holiday event of any kind, the narc is not the center of attention, yet at the same time, events help fuel a narc.

A covert narc will want to hide in the shadows of an event and take everything in.  This is the narc's prime feeding time.  The narc listens to all the stories, all the gossip and this puffs up their sense of well being.  The biggest deal with the covert narc is that he or she may refuse to go, or just not show up to an important event.  This does not seem to matter if the event is in their honor or not.  This type of narc will become angry at you for wanting to celebrate.  Growing up, birthday parties were not allowed in my house.  My mother could not stand the thought of having to be around others, so I was not allowed to have parties.  She also refused to go to things like school plays, performances of any kind and even her own grandson's Eagle Scout Ceremony.  After refusing to go to her own grand-kid's ceremony, she became angry at me for telling her that she was expected to be there and that I would have to tell them a reason she was not there.  By this time, I was well aware that she was a narc and I started being honest, which made her even more angry. I told them that my mother was a narc who does not attend anything that she finds boring, and we were not to expect her to have to show someone some support.

A flamboyant narc would love to come to your event.  They will become the life of the party and if they are not the life of the party, they will find a way to get themselves to be the center of attention.  Holidays deflate this type of narc because they want to be the center of attention, but if they are at someone else's celebration, it is impossible for them to step back and allow the other person to be the center of attention.  They will get drunk or start a fight or find a way to ruin the holiday celebration.

This is also the place where your abusive narc can show their perfection to everyone at the event.  They become the perfect grandma, the perfect mom, dad or husband.   They can put on the best performance you have ever seen drawing attention to themselves and their awesome perfection.  No one suspects how abusive the narc is behind closed doors and the abused person welcomes the attention because it is what they want in a spouse, parent or grandparent.   Be aware that this is not the real personality of the narcissist, it is fake. It is the story they tell outsiders.

Narcissists hate commitments without rewards.  The rewards are different for a covert narc and a flamboyant narc, but both hate commitments without rewards.  This is why the narc will ruin your holiday.

Your Mom Is A Narcissist - She Doesn't Love Me - Mourning Your Mom

We all children of narcissists experience that moment when we realize that our mom is not normal and does not love us like other people's mom's do.  I recall my realization.  We were on vacation and at a table near us, there was a mom and dad.  They were talking to their child about her ability to dive.  They said that while she had only taken a few lessons, she seemed to be a really good diver and was better than the other kids staying in their hotel.  They asked her if she wanted to continue lessons even if it meant working hard to advance her skill.  She said she enjoyed diving and she did want to keep taking lessons.  Her parents nodded.   I recall feeling a tinge of jealousy.  My parents did not care what I was good at.  I wanted gymnastic lessons so badly, but I never got them.  My parents did not know or care what I was good at.

We headed back to the car and the second the door closed, my narc mom started complaining about the family.  She said they were "spoiling" that child, that she would end up on death row.  She talked about the mom, she talked about the dad and she talked about the "brat" as she called her.  That was the day that I realized that my parents did not love me the way other families love their kids.


It was many years later when the line was drawn in the sand.  My mom had not spoken to me for years and had not told me why.  Two years into my punishment, a friend of theirs from church walked up to me and asked me how my dad was doing and I did not know.  I dared to tell someone from her church that she was less than perfect and if you know a narcissist, you know that I started a war with those words.

From that day on, my parents did not speak to me because "I lied".  Even though it was the truth, they said the relationship was severed because I had lied about them.  Still not understanding what a narcissist was, I had a childhood friend try to contact them for me.  They met her with anger.  Not only did they meet her with anger, they used a flying monkey to call me and tell me how terrible it was that I wanted to have a relationship with my family.

What my mom did to me is called stonewalling.  It is when a narc decides to punish you by refusing to speak to you or acknowledge you, and my mom is very good at it.

I made a really hard decision that day.  I decided that if my mom stonewalled me until my dad could not longer speak, that I would not allow her back in my life.  I knew that my mom likes appearances and she was going to want me at my dad's funeral.  At some point, she was going to call me, blame me, then demand an apology and say it was time to move on, that I had paid enough.   If she did it when I could reason with my dad, I would accept what she said even though I knew what she was doing.

My mom didn't call. She sent me an email.  My mom emailed me within hours of my father's death.  He couldn't speak and he was barely breathing and she chose then to shoot me "the email".  I did not acknowledge the email.  I decided that she did not bother to tell me that she was not speaking to me while I begged her answering machine to pick up, so I did not bother to answer her.  She even had the nerve to email me that I needed to be at the funeral 2 hours early.  

Mourning Your Narcissist Mom While She Is Still Alive


This was so hard for me.  My dad was dead and I would never have a normal loving mom.  I had a very hard decision to make.  I decided that the price I had to pay was too great.  She stole the last four years of my dad's life from me and my kids.  I did not want her in my life.  I decided to continue the no contact that she started.   She slammed the door on me and I nailed it shut.  I will never speak to her again.

Now I am left with a hole.  People talk about their great parents and I have none.  I lost my dad and I lost the mom I always wanted but will never have.


I decided to mourn my mom the way I would mourn a dead person.  I wrote her a letter telling her everything she did to me.  It was seven pages long and started when I was two years old and she blamed me for her bad parenting when I accidentally cut off the tip of my sister's finger in a piece of furniture.  She left me home alone that night and I was scared to death.  I wrote about it.  I wrote that I wanted I wanted in a mom but would never get.  I wrote about a mom that would love to help me out when I was in preterm labor and a mom that wanted to see her grandson get his Eagle Scout status.  I wrote about a mom that wanted us in her life.  A mom I would never have.


I kept that letter a few days and added to it as I felt the need.  It ended up being nine pages long.  Nine pages of disappointment.  I bought a helium balloon and made a cross out of two sticks.  I walked into the woods and read the letter to my mom.  I buried the letter.  I put the cross into the ground, but then decided that my mom did not deserve a cross, and I located a nearby rock and placed it on her letter's grave.

I held the balloon in my hands and said, "This is the mom I always wanted and will never have.  I am letting go of the relationship and you are dead and your spirit is lifting up and away from me with this balloon".

I mourned my mom.  You might need to mourn your mom too, and I would encourage you to make the service as specific and personal as you can.  You wanted a kind loving mom and for some reason, you will never get that mom.  So release the spirit of the mom you wanted.

Whether you go no contact at that point is up to you. If you want to keep the narcissist mom in your life, just know that you mourned the mom that you wanted, and she is dead and gone.  Your mom will never be a good mom and if you choose to allow her in your life, that is personal and up to you.

Weird Narcissist Beliefs

Narcissist can have a strange view of the world around them. Growing up with a narc as a mom, I saw this over and over. Your narc may have a different set of strange or untrue beliefs, but I believe that all narcs have them. My narc mom believed that it was noble to be poor. Being poor made you a better person. She would get wildly jealous of people who bought things though, which made no sense to me at all. She would get so jealous of people for buying things that she would shut them out of her life. I recall once my narc mom was complaining that our oven broke. She complained and complained and then complained some more. I tried going to my room, reading, watching tv, but nothing would give her the hint that I didn't want to hear about the oven being broken. I finally said, "If the oven is broken, why don't you call someone to fix it?". She blew. She said, "I can't wait until you move out and your oven breaks. I really really hope all your stuff breaks because I want to see you call someone to fix it every time something breaks. You are so ungrateful, you have no idea how much money it takes to run this house". I grew up, I moved out. I have a job. I make money and if my stove breaks, I buy a new one. Imagine that, getting a J-O-B when you need money.

Your Narcissist Mom Will Ruin Your Wedding

Weddings are the perfect time for your narc mom to show her stuff.  You are so happy, you just got engaged and race to tell your narc parent.  Your reaction will most likely be one of two reactions:

Reaction #1
I am not paying for that.  Her parents paid for her wedding, but she is most certainly not going to pay for yours.  If you are lucky, she will refuse to go while she is at it.

Reaction #2
Great, I am going to pay for it.  I am going to make your dress, pick your food, make your cake.  I am going to be the center of attention.  It's my money, why shouldn't I have a say in it.  Oh, and at the wedding, I am going to embarrass you.  I will either scowl the entire day, fight with you either the night before or that day then blame you, announce that your dress isnt working out as planned that you need to come up with another option, drink too much, or suddenly decide the time is not right and refuse to go.


Mine was the first.  Not only did she refuse to help me pay for the wedding, she refused to dress shop with me.  I found out pretty quickly that when you walk into a dress shop and say your mom wouldn't come, that you are not taken seriously.  The shop workers think you are wasting their time if your mom is not there.  I wish I had known then what I know now.  I would have said, "My mom died when I was two, I wish she could be here, I brought my maid of honor instead".

My narc mom did not want me to have a wedding.  She wanted me to elope.  She pressured me to elope the entire engagement, but the night before the wedding it came to a head and she had me crying so loud that the neighbors called the cops thinking she was killing me.  She stormed out of my room and refused to go to the reception.    She said she would help me get ready for the reception, but she ended up being "too busy".

I was lucky.  If you allow your narc mom, she will ruin your wedding.   Did your narc mom ruin your wedding?  Did she get drunk, decide to wear a wedding dress herself?  Forget to sew your dress?  Make it too big or too small?